21 Nov 2018
Happy Thanksgiving from the I Love Kratom Community!

We wanted to post all the Black Friday Deals that our approved vendors have made us aware of. We have heard that there are a few vendors that are having a tough time staying stocked up. We are confident one of these vendors would love to help you until your vendor is all stocked up again!
Read More...
General discussions regarding Kratom and related topics.
(No Vendor or Promotional Material Please)
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Kratom & the VA

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 5 days ago #32738

  • Max
  • Max's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 6
  • Thank you received: 22
Well crap(tom)!
Two weeks ago I was at the VA for an appointment with my mental health care provider.
He's probably the most knowledgeable Dr I've ever met when it comes to chemical processes of various Rx drugs but more so, he knows all about herbal remedies, treatments etc. He even grows a bunch at his home.

He's always asking me how I'm coping with my various pain levels. This visit was no different. But at one point during the meeting, just about the end I asked him to keep something off the record because I wanted his personal input on something that has been remarkable for my pain. He agreed.

Then I told him about kratom and his smile went out the window, but didn't turn into a frown.
I got the whole daddy lecture, this stuff hasn't been tested, it's got opiods in it (like the crap the VA has me on doesn't?), yeah I know it probably works better and doesn't make you stoned but the FDA has it on their watch list so you have to be careful with it.

My turn: well as far as testing is concerned, do you think that 200 years of human consumption isn't enough for a test base? I have read a story from a guy (here on the forums) that was burning a whopping 30 grams a day, working, dating, despite the fact that he's been off heroine and methodone for some time. He's doing fine. Here's where my Dr changed tune......

He said that I should keep my mouth shut about it because if the VA finds out you're taking it, it could mean that the opioid pain management agreement YOU signed could very well end up being voided. You'll never get treated for pain with meds ever again and this includes POST OP pain management after a surgery. (I know he was blowing black smoke up my butt with that last one). I asked him "outside of big mouth, how could they find out?" he replied "during routine lab work".
Then he said this conversation is over, if we persisted, he'd start entering it his notes. (give a man power huh?)

Needless to say that the respect I have for him is still rock solid, however the trust level took a slap in the face. Its part of one of my mental health issues and part of the PTSD..... I do not trust people, let alone those close to me. Should you gain my trust don't threaten it. Should someone threaten it without breech, for some reason it's like telling me that you will (if you don't bend to me). So.... Let yer mind wander.

OK, Now come on folks, Can a test really differentiate the difference between Tramadol and kratom?
Due to the lack of testing, do they even know what the kratom markers are?
How long does kratom stay in the blood stream anyway?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Laurie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 5 days ago #32744

  • kemppaulh
  • kemppaulh's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 514
  • Karma: 49
  • Thank you received: 853
If they test for kratom, which is more expensive than most urinalysis tests, yes, they'll be able to tell it from Tramadol. It's quite possible that they ARE testing for it because, after all, it's not their money they're spending and, if you test positive, they won't have to give you the best quality care you deserve. That sucks, it really does.

The good news is that kratom doesn't stay in your bloodstream but about two days. As I recall, the half life is about 24 hrs, so in a week it should be undetectable. Still I'd double check with someone who's been through it, if possible.

Someone may have invented something you can drink that masks the kratom in a UA, like they have for those who smoke weed. That might be an option if you're sure it's dependable. Good luck!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Laurie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

;)

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 4 days ago #32749

  • Max
  • Max's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 6
  • Thank you received: 22
Well about the blood an urine tests, that's pretty much good news. If it's gone out of the system after 48 hrs, no problem there. One, you don't have to give samples the same day they ask for em; and second, you always know at least a month in advance when your next appointment is. I happen to know that I'm due for lab work on January __th.
Plus if you don't want to submit lab samples, you don't have too.

So far so good.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Laurie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 4 days ago #32754

  • kratom88NY
  • kratom88NY's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Boarder
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: 9
  • Thank you received: 109
Max,
Kratom does not have opiods in it. You should correct him on that. It simply targets the same receptors that opiods do. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Laurie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 4 days ago #32757

  • Laurie
  • Laurie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Have a better day!
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: 79
  • Thank you received: 2558
My understanding is it’s an opiate agonist. This would put it similar to tramadol/ultram. Which is an opioid. But not an opiate. The difference is opiates and opioids are NOT THE SAME.

I might add, it has the same side effects in the colon that loperamide does, which is why that anti-diarrheal is now under review for putting it behind the counter in pharmacies (like pseudo ephedrine). Apparently people are somehow abusing it (loperamide! Yes, you read it right).

Next, please (I’m never the one who truly knows the answer to stuff)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Laurie

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 4 days ago #32758

  • Laurie
  • Laurie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Have a better day!
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: 79
  • Thank you received: 2558
I’m so sorry to hear about your last Dr appt, Max.

I think the government IN PARTICULAR, as opposed to small dr offices, have been told by the FDA how “dangerous” it is.

What a nightmare of an appt. Just awful and disappointing.

Isn’t the VA the place that discarded Agent Orange had effects on Vietnam war veterans FOR YEARS before admitting it MAY HAVE done harm to those exposed to it, the ones FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM?

Too bad. They are brilliant at many things. They have too many people in politics telling them how to practice medicine.

I’m so sorry to hear about your dr visit. Took some cahunas to even TRY to speak human to human in a government run facility.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Laurie
Last edit: by Laurie.

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 3 days ago #32771

  • Max
  • Max's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 6
  • Thank you received: 22

Laurie wrote: I’m so sorry to hear about your last Dr appt, Max.

I think the government IN PARTICULAR, as opposed to small dr offices, have been told by the FDA how “dangerous” it is.

What a nightmare of an appt. Just awful and disappointing.

Isn’t the VA the place that discarded Agent Orange had effects on Vietnam war veterans FOR YEARS before admitting it MAY HAVE done harm to those exposed to it, the ones FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM?

Too bad. They are brilliant at many things. They have too many people in politics telling them how to practice medicine.

I’m so sorry to hear about your dr visit. Took some cahunas to even TRY to speak human to human in a government run facility.


Yes, the appointment was certainly disheartening to say the least. As far as the agent orange thing goes, it was more of a denial on the part of the military, feeding crap through the VA. Then there was the politicians who were on the committee of veterans affairs who didn't know who to believe or which way to go. Think, "we're just going to have to do our own research.

Even today the VA does its own research and testing, meaning if the FDA approved a miracle drug that regenerates damaged nerves in vets with spinal damage, that would enable them to walk again, The VA will say, "we ain't buying into the FDA racket and we'll do our own testing and research."
Probably because if they didn't they'd be held liable if they were serious detrimental effects instead of the drug manufacturers. In a sense I kind of like this attitude because the FDA is a finger puppet of the big pharma drug cartels and their are plenty of loop holes and short cuts that enable big pharma to release new drugs with no testing at all, just as long as the drug has a similar predecessor which was successful. However this doesn't mean the VA doesn't ignore the FDA. Obviously they pay close attention.

Another reason is that the VA doesn't give out new meds period. They wait until a generic is available and we all know that takes about (I forget precisely) from 3-7 years for the original patent to expire. You can't make generic drugs until the original patent expires. Once it does you can make em. This is a good thing too, it doesn't allow for a long term monopoly on drugs.

The only reason in my mind why the FDA is so down on kratom is that the big pharma drug cartels haven't had time to play catch up to synthesize. They want their 5 years of monopoly money first.
More people die of plenty of OTC meds and herbal supplements I don't see the FDA raising a big stink.

As far as my kratom treatment goes, 2g burns work best and I can space em out every 3-4 days. For me I think it's the anti-inflammatory properties that are working best. My body tells me with great accuracy when it's time for a burn.

I love my mental health Dr. Don't get me wrong about him. He looks like James Taylor (same age) and he's a dern gifted and dedicated Dr. With the last appointment/check-up I've learned the boundaries of trust. I wish it were more, but I'm not sure it's my place to complain.

For the most part the VA is extremely good now. It was worse under Obama and everyone knows he didn't care for vets or our military (he tore it down). He cut the budget and we lost a lot of Dr's, the results of which, you had to wait in line for an appointment with your primary care Dr.
3 frick'n months. The initial problem was Obama. But there are others which I will explain.

The VA is run by the secretary of the VA and the committee on veterans affairs. Someone up there made some stupid rules a long time ago. One of em is bonus checks for performance. It's had the opposite effect in many instances as you've heard about in the media. Numbers get bolstered and made to look good but they were lies. All because someone wanted their bonuses. Because of the lack of Dr's, long lines, Obama essentially created the mess while the VA committee (senators) and the secretary of the VA created the atmosphere of greed. Guess who got dumped on? Vets!

While the wait times are much better now (I can get seen inside a week now) the problem is the bureaucrates and level of greed. They've got the medical staff saying to patients "thank you for your service". I don't know how to explain it, but I don't like it. It's like "kiss their butts and they won't complain". We're constantly being told in letters and other VA propaganda materials that "vets are loved etc etc". Dern bureaucrates! If they're so caring then why did they overpay a disability benefit to a Vietnam vet for 36 years and then catch the error, decided to garnish his $1,151 disability check and leave him with $850 a month to live on?

Because if they can show they're recouping loss they get their bonus checks. Essentially they're stealing from vets to line their own pockets. The bureaucrates care? Only about themselves.

It's only the employees and medical staff that care. I've needed urgent care before (and most clinics don't have urgent care facilities or ER's). Sure I could have gone to the local ER, But the situation wasn't what I would call an emergency. We're not allowed to go to private urgent care clinics. Anyway, my Dr's office would either skip lunch or squeeze me in between patients just to treat me.

The problems are the most often 1. Bureaucrates, 2. Politicians (commitee on VA Affairs) 3. Secretary of the VA (usually a pawn of the potus) 3 the president.
Not always in this order. It can be a mess.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Laurie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Kratom & the VA 3 weeks 3 days ago #32777

  • Laurie
  • Laurie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Have a better day!
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: 79
  • Thank you received: 2558
Thank you for the clarification as my post definitely needed clarification.

My sympathies were mostly regarding the relationship with that particular dr and you nailed it about boundaries.

I had a stepson who has been able to do great things to help VA patients (he is a pharmacist). He still needs to work for chain pharmacies to pay the bills, tho. But the military provided him the education to do this work after he was injured while at home - not while serving.

You’re so right about the health workers on the front lines seeing patients. Amazing and very caring (from what I’m told by friends). That’s why I felt bad about that particular discussion you shared. I hope it hasn’t compromised future care for you or the relationship you have established. But, I missed the part where you said “therapist”, which hopefully has some sort of confidentiality ongoing.

Great read for any vet, Max! That part about “thank you for your service” would really annoy me. You’re a very patient - patient. This post is very articulately written and appreciated. Thank you for your-post, AND your service.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Laurie
Last edit: by Laurie.
  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: kemppaulh
Time to create page: 0.141 seconds

Forum Support

If you're interested in advertising on the site or having any trouble with any function of the forum, please drop us a line.

Contact Us