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TOPIC: what to do about tolerance?

what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44952

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It turns out that I have developed a tolerance to kratom. Currently I take it once a day at night. My dose seems to have jumped up rather quickly. At first I thought the last batch I bought was maybe a little a weak, but I was advised to try one of the approved vendors and I did. Yep, turns out I need to cut back.

My question is how long do I need to abstain for to get my tolerance back down? Once my tolerance is down is there a certain amount of time I should cut back every week to stop this from happening again?

Many thanks.
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44954

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I hear you and sympathize from personal experience. I have to do the reset more often than most folks.

If you abstain altogether, one week will greatly improve your results. I’m told 2 weeks is a full reset, but I’ve not made it that long in years due to a chronic pain issue.

My doses were NOT that high, but my frequency of use was the problem. I’m down but I was at 3 grams a day after a 36 hr break. Now I’m back up to probably 5-6 grams per day. I never use more than 2 grams at a time.

Everyone is vastly different. So more replies of other strategies will be more helpful for you. Don’t feel bad about yourself about this - it happens to most everyone I know who use this botanical.
Laurie
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44964

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I have yet to run into any issues with tolerance from regular kratom powder. For what i take kratom for.
I am sure though if i was using it for chronic pain management or coming of opiates it could be different.
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44970

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I'm also very interested in hearing other's responses to this well-worded question. I am at the point where I do not want to increase my dosage level but find what I'm currently taking is inadequate to prevent minor withdrawal symptoms prior to my next dose. It surprises me that this took a long time to occur...almost two years. I saw an interview once where a gentleman stated that he went off for four days a month in order to prevent tolerance. At the time, I didn't think I needed to do that but now, like Whiskyjoe, I am wondering if this would be a good idea. Will appreciate any feedback.
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44971

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Babel-17 (member here/huge contributor on ILK) will probably be along soon to share the Kratom Free Friday’s (KFF) he does for this purpose and I’ve done one or two Hirsuta Only Thursday’s (HOT). You can search for those keywords in the website or hang tight for personal updates. I strongly recommend this.
Laurie
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44972

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There's far too many variables here for me to generalize. What works for me now would have been much harder for me to pull off before I retired from my career as a construction worker. As a retiree I have a tremendous amount of flexibility and leeway in how I can use supplements, including Kratom.

For me to say that any of what works for me, and apparently some others, could apply to you, or anyone else, it would be important to know several details. What ails you, and what prescriptions have you been taking over the years, and how long have you been taking Kratom, and in what amounts, are questions that come to mind.

For me, Kratom is remarkable in so far as how it offers a complete basket of benefits that really suits my needs and desires. But what's in that basket can be roughly, more or less, substituted for by a collection of several other supplements, the one partial exception to that being the unique way Kratom can tickle an opioid receptor in our bodies in a manner that is far less susceptible to crippling abuse and dependency than typical pharmaceuticals.

I am not an expert, and all of that is just my opinion, as is anything else I say.

As a long time user of supplements I've tried many over the years, and keep learning of new ones. To avoid constantly using Kratom as my go to solution for whatever I want to address, I use a laundry list of herbal based products,like Kava for example, and stuff that originated in a laboratory, like the amino acids DLPA, Theanine, Agmatine, and a few others.

So right away if I want to use less Kratom, and thus keep tolerance at bay, I might delay or reduce the amount I take by using instead some Kava extract, Valerian root extract, Passion flower extract, Magnesium Malate, Cat's Claw extract, Red Reishi Mushroom extract, the aminos I mentioned, SAMe (I take that regardless), and lots of other vitamins and supplements that help with feeling well, like B vitamins, Hemp seed oil, and a long list of others.

Those that dovetail strongly with Kratom tolerance would be Black seed oil (It's used in Afghanistan to treat opioid addiction, I take it every day), Agmatine (I take it several times a day for tolerance, and its other benefits), DLPA, and Ginger root extract (I take two grams of that every day, it's proven to have worked with rats for morphine tolerance).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137441/

Curcumin (what's in Turmeric), black pepper or its extract, CBD extract, and other stuff, can keep your body from eliminating some of Kratom's alkaloids as fast as it might otherwise. Taking Kratom with an acidic drink might help your body better absorb it, as would stirring the Kratom in hot water. With acidic drinks be careful to not damage the enamel of your teeth. Don't brush your teeth right before drinking such, and rinse your mouth thoroughly after partaking of it.

Try to embrace it when you delay or skip a serving of Kratom. For me I stay mindful of the turning point when the desire to take some starts lessening. That's really important in getting to know where you stand in regards tolerance. If it's a major struggle to get to the point where it gets easier to not take some, then imo a strategy to reduce ones intake of Kratom is called for.

At such a time it becomes more important than ever to always be as well rested as possible, to stay hydrated and nourished, to get some exercise, and practice various techniques for reducing stress, discomfort, and anxiety.

Taking showers, meditating, listening to music, and watching entertaining movies and shows can all help. The above mentioned herbs can help. DLPA is useful for pain and energy, and Valerian, Kava, and Passion flower extracts are all really effective at helping with mood. Just don't overdo them, and take breaks from using them, though Kava can be used fairly regularly when taken in moderation. In my experience that is, your mileage may vary.

Magnesium, and Theanine, can help with sleep, though Theanine is hit or miss with people, and its important to be careful with dosage, as doubling or tripling the recommended amount might give you a spacey feeling. And it's generally best to take aminos a half an hour so apart. Albeit that rule is more for convenience, as some don't compete with other when taken together.

Finally, "just do it". Have whatever you want to use as a substitute at hand, and whatever mood enhancers, like music, you've planned on on tap, and accept the idea that any discomfort that creeps through is just your body regulating itself. Chronic pain is chronic pain, and will just have to be borne as gracefully as possible. Though of course there's a plethora of non-opioid based supplements that can partially address that. I even broke down one day and dug up a crusty old bottle of aspirin and I was delighted to be reminded that the stuff does work, though continued use has its known downside.

I'd take one day a week off from Kratom, I chose Friday to be the regular day, and it was both educational, and helpful, in regards tolerance. I even learned more about which supplements are useful when not taking Kratom.

Rhodiola is good for energy, and Passion Flower extract has a strong benefit that is generally underrated by the supplement community. Valerian, and Kava, work in a similar fashion and both provide strong kicks to anxiety's ass, with Kava also boosting mood.

For achy joints and bones I sometimes take Boswellia extract. Been around for thousands of years, so it has a proven track record.

Anyway, after a few months of my Kratom Free Fridays I found myself just naturally lowering the weekly total of Kratom I was taking to the point that it was about a third less. By being more strategic in the timing of when I took it, and by using a whole basket of other supplements, I became able to take less while appreciating it more.

The idea behind Kratom Free Friday has a rigidity that's useful, but at the moment I'm moving beyond it. I use it to mark a three day period of reduced intake, and of course it's a reminder to keep things under control. Should I want, or need, to make a drop in the amount I take I'll go back to it.

When I started KFF (Kratom Free Friday) I was already mindful of the need to not get skippy with my use of the herb, and I wasn't taking more than what I consider a light to moderate amount. But it was an educational enough experience that I have somehow managed to take even less while enjoying it more, or at least just as much.

Lol, I've gone from thinking I have too much tea in the cupboard to thinking I have way too much tea in the cupboard. :)

But it's all good, and thanks to this forum I found vendors who are all AAA*, and having too much, while taking it mindfully, just means I get to go down memory lane and revisit the highly valued variety that's stashed away. And writing that reminds me that I mean to write a review about that, as I plan on doing a complete rotation of everything I have stored away.

*
Hudson Valley Botanicals (Garuda)

Kratom Store

Tea Time Botanicals

InSense Botanicals

Gold Leaf Botanicals

Soflo Kratom

Otie's Botanicals

P.S. And of course I totally forgot to take on the topic of Stem and Vein, and that of other herbs that are closely related to Kratom.

Laurie is more experienced with that, but I consider Stem and Vein to be useful, and I take a quarter of a gram of it with each serving of regular Kratom. Some regular Kratom is inherent to the final product when they make stem and vein, so bear that in mind. I read one vendor say it was roughly 30% Kratom leaf that was still attached to the stem and vein when it got ground up.

This can actually be very good if one is just taking stem and vein as a substitute for regular ground leaf Kratom.
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Last edit: by Babel-17.

what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44973

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What an enjoyable and thorough read, Babel-17!

I especially appreciate the mention of OTHER HERBS that are easily acquired and helpful for use in keeping tolerance low!

I don’t know about the others, but I enjoyed this summary and hope Nan70 made note of the link to this post ;)
Laurie
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44975

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Turmeric/Curcumin
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4352596/
Babel already shared the ginger link :-bd

I take my kratom doses with black pepper and turmeric. I am already using ginger various ways throughout the day. Coconut Oil or high saturated fats help potentiate the effects of kratom which might help in tapering the dose down.I also rotate my kratom around different strains from 4 to 5 different vendors.(always Reds at night and greens for the day though, so I am actually rotating between different greens daily and different Reds nightly)
I also always weigh each dose and have taken the exact weighed doses (2.4 for Reds and 1.7 grams for greens) for the last two years.
I only use kratom twice a day(spinal arthritis) in between doses I use other botanicals if needed to manage stress and pain. Recently I am having huge success with Rhodiola Rosea.(keep an eye out, I am going to be creating an informational post soon about this herb)

Best
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what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44977

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Thanks for picking up the slack Nan, I totally forgot to mention coconut oil/oil/MCT oil, and the advantages of rotating strains.

And thanks for the curcumin link. I'm surprised, pleasantly, that I've never see that extremely important reference. So that's a really nice find for me.

I take a couple of turmerics during the day, and it's cool to know I'm not the only one going olden skool by way of using black pepper instead of its extract, piperine. :)

Edit: You ever weigh out the black pepper? I once researched the likely range of piperine in the McCormick brand I use, but I forgot to write it down and just eyeball what I remember as the amount that was. It's not much, that I remember.
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Last edit: by Babel-17.

what to do about tolerance? 1 month 2 weeks ago #44981

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Whiskeyjoe wrote: It turns out that I have developed a tolerance to kratom. Currently I take it once a day at night. My dose seems to have jumped up rather quickly. At first I thought the last batch I bought was maybe a little a weak, but I was advised to try one of the approved vendors and I did. Yep, turns out I need to cut back.

My question is how long do I need to abstain for to get my tolerance back down? Once my tolerance is down is there a certain amount of time I should cut back every week to stop this from happening again?

Many thanks.


First, to answer your question, about 2 weeks. Once you have an acceptable dose for you (for me it is 3g), the key is to just keep it there and not go up at all.

To get through the break, I would highly recommend javanica and hirsuta as already denoted on hirsuta Thursdays. Depending on the reason for you taking kratom in the first place, there are other botanicals that could potentially help. It's important to know that hirsuta and javanica are not as effective as kratom, and their secondary and tertiary alkaloids aren't like kratom. So more often than not, folks claim to expect a green like feeling from them. With this in mind, they are lacking if you don't use greens. If you prefer reds, akuamma is a botanical that is claimed to help with pain and blue lotus is claimed to help with sleep. For feelings similar to whites, kanna is often taken for mood lift and energy and magnolia bark for relief from social anxiety. However, like kratom, botanicals have different effects on everyone, and your medical situation may dictate limitations.

I'll try to keep this as little nerdy as possible, so here goes. To keep your tolerance at bay, most people potentiate. However, I would warn that most folks also believe that all potentiators are taken before a dose. While this is true in some(examples are citrus juice/powders, high fatty foods/diary, chinese cat's claw, etc.), others contain antagonists that actually block kratom receptors and reduce perceived effects (turmeric, curcumin, agmatine theanine, etc.). These potentiators reduce tolerance, but the most opportune time to take them is in the middle of the biggest gap between doses. For example, if I dose at 5pm and 9am, I would want to take them before bedtime perhaps at 10pm or 11pm.

Doing this serves to make that last dose last longer, as you'll relieve some of your receptors, and your next morning dose will hit harder (you can take less), as they would have reduced your tolerance.

I tend to potentiate rather than try to taper, and my dose doesn't change much now. If I have a rough week and not enough effects, I tend to just take a weekend off and I'm right back on Monday.
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