Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
22 Jun 2020
Good morning everyone, we'd like to welcome you to the new ILK Forum! We're in the process of finishing up all the the small details and will get everything done asap. This includes the new vendor pages, the daily and weekly special pages, the new blog sections, resource sections and more.

Please make sure to check out our approved vendors and don't be afraid to jump in there and ask questions and leave productive reviews.
~ I Love Kratom Forum Staff
General discussions regarding Kratom and related topics.
(No Vendor or Promotional Material Please)
  • Page:
  • 1


Some thoughts on rotation. 7 months 3 weeks ago #48932

  • madmaxnightrider
  • madmaxnightrider's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Fight for your Rights to Use Kratom.
  • Posts: 2681
  • Karma: 105
  • Thank you received: 4335
A common misunderstanding that many beginners make when using Kratom is that they only buy one type and use it over and over. At first, it works well, but in the end you will see that the effects are getting weaker.

Rotating Kratom is important for a specific reason, and that is to keep your tolerance low. When you use the same kratom type every day day in day out your body will become used to it, which will make the effects less potent because your body builds a tolerance over a period of time.

Imagine doing the same exercises every day. It's hard at the beginning, but your body will ultimately find a more efficient way to execute them. If you do not do that exercise every day, your body is not so used to it. With constant exposure to the same, the body will find a better way to process or make use of it.

Stagnant Strain Syndrome
This was a term that simply refers to the effects of using one strain of Kratom over and over again.

When this happens you begin to see an increase in dosage to get the effects you normally would get when you first started taking the strain. This is called Stagnant Strain Syndrome and it can be avoided in a simple way. The smart Kratom consumer will switch and mix up their strains of Kratom in order to stay away from the Stagnant Strain Syndrome effect of one particular strain.

What you must understand about Kratom is each strain has its own effects on the body. In essence, the different strains are basically the same plant. The maturity of the tree, the drying and production process, change the effects of what we know as the three different types of Kratom.

The alkaloids in the strain of Kratom you are currently using are independent from any other strain, which means you will be exposed to this particular strains combination of alkaloids. The maturity of the tree, the drying and production process influence the alkaloid content.

Kratom tolerance is a real thing – and aggravating, so make sure you adhere to these tips below.

How do you rotate kratom?
Rotating kratom means that you have to use a different type of kratom type every day to experience desired effects. Preferably, 5 to 7 species should be in your rotation. It is also possible to do create 'Kratom Fusions'. You can mix two strains together, in this way you can easily take Kratom everyday with only 3 different strains of Kratom. The more different strains, the better.

If you want to take the same favorite strain again, it is best to take the same kind again after about 3 days. The more often you take the same kind without rotation, the more tolerance you build, making that particular strain much more difficult to experience effectively.

One thing you can do if you'd like to use the same strain on the same day several times is to take a slightly larger dose to match the desired effect. The best thing is to do this after about 3-4 hours from the last time you took it.

So how many types do I need?
This is different per person. If you do not want to use Kratom everyday (beginners) then 3 is the minimum. But to keep the tolerance effective in daily use, you must have about 5-7 species as mentioned before.

Each species has its own strength and specific effects and we usually prefer another effect every day. Monday can be Mood Lifting, Tuesday can be energizing, Wednesday can be relaxing, Thursday can be focused, Friday can be Mood Lifting, Saturday can be energizing, Sunday can be relaxed etc.

This is just an Example of How you can go about Rotating Strains Throughout the Month:

Life Is Like Teaching Sanskrit To A Pony.
Intelligence is like a river. The deeper it is... the less noise it makes.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tiggermanscrat, Babel-17, FusedFlora, KrateisGreat, MycatTimmy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Some thoughts on rotation. 7 months 3 weeks ago #48919

  • madmaxnightrider
  • madmaxnightrider's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Fight for your Rights to Use Kratom.
  • Posts: 2681
  • Karma: 105
  • Thank you received: 4335
Awesome Post Shaun!:-bd You are a very knowledgeable person & know how to Explain Things.:-? Excellent Post!
Life Is Like Teaching Sanskrit To A Pony.
Intelligence is like a river. The deeper it is... the less noise it makes.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tiggermanscrat, FusedFlora

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Some thoughts on rotation. 7 months 3 weeks ago #48873

  • KrateisGreat
  • KrateisGreat's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 6
  • Thank you received: 32
This is a very interesting post! You have a very scientific mind and it was a pleasure to read on your inferences and contemplation regarding the truly fascinating variables that go into play on the concentrations of alkaloids a kratom tree will express. You mention how soil makes a big difference, and this makes a lot of sense to me. How soil deprived of key nutrients likely won't support a thriving condition for myrtigina speciosa to have optimal growth. Now this makes me wonder if using supplementation of micro nutrients like minerals and the like would help support more potent yields. I know that this is often the first thing to go for a lot of farmers that continue to use the same soil. However, I am not knowledgeable in how well kratom utilizes minimal resources & how much it affects secondary metabolites like the alkaloids in kratom we know and love.

Maybe certain nutrients promote certain alkaloids to be in higher concentrations than the other ones. Studying things like this in further detail may be very helpful to create batches that are very specific to patients needs (ex. more anti-inflammatory compounds like Epicatechin & Rhynchophylline while having less pain killing ones like Mitragynine). It truly is something extraordinarily to consider how genetic traits may be expressed or not expressed due to certain environmental conditions which in-turn may completely change how the tree develops.

Now the point you bring up about stems and "bone" kratom reminds me of terrible batches caused by people harvesting immature kratom leaves that haven't had time to fully develop a full spectrum of alkaloids. Now we may be pretty far away technologically speaking from fully utilizing these biological machines, but it still makes me wonder the experimenters out there playing with the many conditions out there to create the best product. You also have definitely peaked my interest in how the variables of drying conditions change a batch, and I will definitely be doing more research on these topics thanks to you!

Also, in regards to tolerance.. I definitely appreciate a good krate rotation. That being said however, I found something that helps support further reduction in the already small amount of tolerance krate causes. Taking a weak NMDA agonist such as magnesium or panax ginseng significantly prevents tolerance buildup. Personally I love the combo of krate and ginseng for a very productive and wonderful anti-depressant effect. Since hearing about taking ginseng to stop krate tolerance, I am able to continue taking one strain throughout a whole week without any diminished effects in my experience. I definitely recommend doing some more research on this if it peaks your interest.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tiggermanscrat, michele373, Babel-17, FusedFlora, CanadianTW, Richard65, Somethingsacredgoinonhere

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Some thoughts on rotation. 7 months 3 weeks ago #48870

  • Somethingsacredgoinonhere
  • Somethingsacredgoinonhere's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Pizza and kratom ?
  • Posts: 977
  • Thank you received: 2001
Brother Shaun! =D>

Thank you for this break down of food for thought on rotating strains , I’m super fascinated by what contributes to diff alk profiles even if from within the same harvested batch . Super cool to think about how going a little left or a little right in terms of drying method , location , time of year .... and how that can create diff alk levels and effects of various kinds . Some feel that all kratom is the same no matter the method involved with processing ... perhaps they are right genetically speaking , but one plot of land (I tend to lean towards this idea ) has one batch of kratom influenced by that particular soil biology and possibly many other nuances to that particular location.... can influence the crop differently than a plot down the road with its own set of biology ...

Probably very similar but also I feel unique enough to prompt/ coax diff phenotype expression...

Then adding the all the variable contributions like you mentioned like time of year , exposure to diff amount of light , stem or no stem or very little stem ...

Super neat and very interesting , I love thinking about all of these , I am a believer in “strain”
rotation, need to mix the pot up otherwise you’ll only be eating potatoes and not the carrots and celery in the stew lol!

Thx for posting this cool food for thought ! :)
Life is better with kratom !
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tiggermanscrat, Babel-17, FusedFlora, Richard65, KrateisGreat

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Somethingsacredgoinonhere.

Some thoughts on rotation. 7 months 3 weeks ago #48863

  • FusedFlora
  • FusedFlora's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: 5
  • Thank you received: 597
I’ve spoke towards a good deal of methods to combat tolerance issues, such as hirsuta, javanica, other botanicals, or interactions with supplements. However, I’m seeing more and more interesting things that I’m getting questions about and want to help folks a bit concerning leaf rotation.

This is important, as I get a lot of "This leaf just isn't working, how can I reduce doses?" Or "Vendor XXX stuff is sooo good, but doesn't hit anymore." After some context, most of the time it is folks just not being diligent in rotating. If one only gets leaf from Borneo, they'll have more tolerance towards leaf with similar profiles.

A recent question I’ve received is “Do you carry bones so I can add to my rotation?” On the surface it’s a simple question; but a bit harder to answer. Bones in Malaysian is the literal translation to the stems of the leaf. In traditional preparation, “bones” are just leaves that have not had the stem and vein removed. So what’s the difference in stem and vein and “bones”? In my experience, speaking, to at least thirty Indo vendors on the preparation of “bones” strains, there’s no difference. What one traditionally thinks of as stem and vein is just been renamed to “bones” in most cases. Perhaps it’s easier for the Indonesians to describe this way, or just an English-speaking vendor that didn’t interpret it well.

Most string dried methods use the stems to tie upward, and most Indonesian suppliers I’ve spoke to consider these “bones” as they weren’t stripped like most their rack dried batches. Obviously, some suppliers string dry using a line through the leaf, these may not be “bones” to many.

I think less important is the “bones” question, more important is where does your “bones” come from so it’s alkaloid profile is different from other offerings you have? Hold this thought, I'll discuss why in a moment.

What about “milk” strains of light/dark, why don't you have those? From my discussions with Indonesians that prepare it, these are typically their regular strains, just more exposed/less exposed to light. Better question would be how do the soil/environmental conditions promote a differing alkaloid profile than your other offerings?

I find this question and the above to be a huge issue for consumers. Instead of just receiving a traditional Hulu, consumers may be receiving a stem and vein "bones" Hulu, a Hulu that’s been in the sun more "milk/light green", another regular Hulu labeled "plantation", a Hulu thats very green labeled "hulk," and a Hulu dried inside more "dark green." Oh, I forgot to mention the large Hulu leaves "elephant" and the super pointy ones "horned/dragon". If one thinks they’re getting a bunch of strains from a vendor to be able to rotate, in most cases unfortunately, yes it's different, but not so dissimilar profiles. Quite the opposite I’d argue. I feel like Morpheus saying this... What if I told you some vendors have 5 out of 12 greens that are close to exactly the same...?

One might ask, if a vendor’s Maeng Da, Borneo, and Elephant all come from the same harvest and the same farm, are the alkaloid profiles much different? Now that’s an extremely difficult question to answer, as I doubt anyone has tested a full alkaloid profile to prove/disprove this; it’s cost prohibitive in most cases. However, what I would say is that the probability of the alkaloid profile to be different from a Red Sumatra, actually from Sumatra, and a Red Hulu, actually from Hulu would be much more different than the same farm/same harvest Red Sumatra and Hulu or Milk Hulu and Elephant Hulu from one farm/one harvest. This could be easily proven with mitra/7ohm levels. If you’re actually building a rotation, probability is it would be a better option to have leaf from different farms in different areas.

Another excellent thing to consider is rainy/dry season leaf. I often hear, “I only buy dry season leaf!” I know Gumbyke, wrote some about this, but folks still seem to believe that rainy season leaf is inferior for some reason. Certainly some Indonesian suppliers struggle to properly dry during rainy season, but most of the good suppliers have overcome this. For example, I’ve had leaves from the same trees from a rainy harvest and from a dry. And while yes, their mitra/7ohm profiles were slightly different, both were fire leaf and excellent. I’m certain other alkaloids affect this and impact the one with lower mitra for us to perceive it's just as good as the one with higher. Perhaps the differing alkaloid profile assists in keeping tolerance low, as I've had low mitra ones slam in ways higher mitra ones can’t. I cannot prove the composite alkaloid profiles do this, as again, it would be cost prohibitive, but probability is that rainy/dry season has different alkaloid profiles that would in all likelihood assist better for rotating rather one farm/one harvest. I would say rainy seasons leaf is perhaps just as important in a rotation as dry season leaf, as long as it works well for you.

This is why small craft leaf suppliers are important. The mass produced farm stuff can wreck tolerance and rotations, even when one thinks they're rotating.
The following user(s) said Thank You: madmaxnightrider, Tiggermanscrat, michele373, Babel-17, CanadianTW, Richard65, Somethingsacredgoinonhere, KrateisGreat, MycatTimmy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: kemppaulhSomethingsacredgoinonhere
Time to create page: 0.163 seconds