07 Feb 2019
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TOPIC: Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling

Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33636

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But you dont know if your ordering green sundra or kali. Its by a number. I see that he says when u order from some other vendors u may not be getting green sundra just another green in a sundra package. From what i saw its greens with different numbers. Im not trashing them i have been wanting to order from them. And right now its difficult enough to figure what type of green or red thats best for what your looking for.so this to me seems even harder. Or maybe im missing something and sound like a fool lol
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33638

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Its intimidating. In the case if I was looking to get green sundra again I would give them my order date and ask if they had that batch still. If not I would ask if they have someone who tested the new batches that feel matches the effects of my past green sundra order.

This ordering system will certainly have a few foes.
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33640

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Sweet, well when we list and label our yellows come on down. We have them but we need to label and inventory them. The health issues, the holidays and the remodel put us behind majorly.

As for your experience with certain strains, I hate to say this and I have much respect for you. But when you say these made up names like "Sunda" and "Sulawesi" and so on and so on... its just a different kratom. There is no such thing as "kali" and "borneo" and so on. I will admit that I had them listed on my site for 2 years. But, after digging deeper and being behind the scenes I am here to admit I lied to my customers. The names mean absolutely nothing.

You have the same people saying, you can grow "Thai" tree i borneo, its the tree that makes it a Thai. And then the same people will say, its the area the tree came from. So if it came from sulawesi that makes it sulawesi. Well, which one is it? You cant have both? Funny thing is it is NEITHER. Many different phenotypes grow in any given area. So what your saying is some Indonesian with little to no experience in botany or any science field for that matter just automatically knows exactly what its called. Not only that but the 10 different phenotypes are all named the same random name. It's just not feasible.

Can you please explain to me what exactly makes the name of all these products? What consistent variable involved to name product?

The problem is that this lie has been so driven into the community we are literally swearing by things that don't even exist.

When science comes out and says that there is no difference between colors and regions and that it's all made up. Everyone just ignores it. Because science says that all these reviews and advice from person to person is pretty much just for our own well ebing. It won't translate into anything other than just satisfying our need to "know" something. When in reality nobody knows this stuff.

People are literally making up names of products. I can't begin to tell you how many times that a supplier in Indonesia sells a leaf and then it comes over here and turns into Kali, Borneo, Maeng Da, Thai, etc.... I'm extremely thankful to have such great people like all of you in this community but honestly its time to really think this out. If your Green Sunda that your talking about was a Green Indo somewhere else and also a Green Papua in another vendors store, what validation do you have when you can be so sure about these strain names?

Doesn't it hurt you when the strains you have had aren't the names you think they are... They aren't consistent enough to say things like "For ordering a Green strain I would need help. My past favorites are Sundra and Kali. Duration is excellent, have mood lift, energy with these. but I was not too successful with Green Sulawesi multiple attempts it did not have the pain relief legs the other two had. "

Number one, Everyone reacts differently. Period. This is so much of a fact. This is SOOOO true. So, how is any personal experience going to always help if it does something different for someone else sometimes? Wouldn't that actually back track someone? I cannot get past this conundrum. That experience you had with Sunda is gone. It was unique. It is never going to be replicated and it will never be found again.

Second, when you search for a product and you have a false precept.... how can the result be expected to be premiere...to be the one you wanted? I mean there is always luck. Which is why we are in this boat. Bc kratom works. So people start connecting dots and then making these statements that others take for facts.

I mean check this... If your looking for Green Vietnam and that product came from a batch with 17 trees. Out of those 17 trees there were about 10 different phenotypes. And Let's just say all the vendors who get part of that batch happen to name it Green Vietnam (won't happen but let's just say this happens to prove a point here) and you then get the perfect experience from one of those random 10 different phenotypes and now that leaves you swearing that you need to look for Green Vietnam. When in actuality the name isn't Vietnam (because there is no scientific or consistent names for kratom so therefor no names exist) AND there are 10 different outcomes you couldve had with the one "vietnam" source, when in reality it should have had 10 different names. It's mind numbing for me. I honestly have never understood how this is happening.

The kratom market was started by Indonesian folks looking to make money for their families. They ended up saying anything they could for years to market their product. The lies that were fed to us were then spewed back online by the suppliers. MOST of those suppliers were just regular folks with very little business experience and personally about 25% of all the kratom vendors I know were addicts at one point that were just trying to sustain there own stock as well as make some cash. So the ideals were never there. Most people in the beginning were saying anything they could to sound smart. Not to be condescending to the pioneers but some of the stuff said was just purely not true.

So, now we have the entire market basically brainwashed into believing things that are very far from the truth.

I would love for anyone here to tell me if you think I could bring a sample of "Green Sunda" to a scientist familiar with kratom and ask them to tell me what the sample was. Do you honestly think that the scientist will say, "Joe we ran tests and this is what we call green sunda" No, he can't do that because there are zero biological markers that make a leaf "Green Sunda" its just a nickname.

I am very busy and got to get back to work but this topic is very close to my heart. So, pardon my vent. I seriously do care for all of you and wish you all the best butttt.... The entire industry is content with suppliers who name things whatever they want, and then refuse to believe when someone says that colors and names dont have any meaning and you basically are sharing information about experiences that cannot really help. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm really not. But, the product is inconsistent in its labeling but yet we still talk about it like you could actually find something out when the product changes names more times then anything else on the market.

If you don't take my word for it. Then maybe the leading expert Dr McCurdy will convince you


And as for the ordering system having foes...Im okay with that. If I had to call a sandwich a mozzerella stick just for it to sell I wouldnt do it. I would sit in my sandwich stand with no customers because I refuse to lie just to make a confused market happy. Eventually the folks that read my articles and the ones that think this out will come around. Other well, I still love you.

Once again.... I love discourse and I hope I dont offend anyone but, if you honestly think that you are getting whats on your package label then I'm here to disagree with you emphatically. Even if the vendor gets it from indonesia and names it exactly as it was sold to him/her as and swears that "it is the real name" I'm here to once again say.... sorry there is absolutely NO consistency or any real system for naming strains. Someone just slapped a name on it. It's a fact. The vendor can claim ignorance but that doesnt chance the science


Well, I gotta fix some stuff I hope your nights are well!
We always want you to contact us! 207-907-6687 We take kratom very serious!
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33641

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I guess my next favorite strains......phenotypes will be #'s____ to be determined.
I order small enough where the idea of ordering like this will be an easy transition I image the foes will be the bulk kilo buyers and higher dosers. Maybe not.

For rotational Kratom users it sounds logical.

Good luck Joe and set the mind on healing for a bit.
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Last edit: by Nan70.

Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33643

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Any chance someone could make joes remark fully readible for us phone users ?? Thx In advance(L)
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33648

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1st i just need to say im not a foe. I have been looking forward to ordering from them.what im trying to express as someone new whos trying to find their way is that its hard figuring out what does what with all the different names that it just is confusing me more. I read the statement multiple times. I applaud him for his honesty about say how a green hulu you order may not be a green hulu next time and that there is no such thing.and vendors including himself would just slap a label on it. And kudos for them for trying to clear it all up.i got that. Now say i order green 1027 1028. And i love 1027.if i read it correctly and vendors have just used made up names. Because there is no uniformity. Like say wine u buy a certain form of white wine it will always be the same. But what im trying to get to is this. If i enjot the 1027. And sy i order again does this mean im getting the same thing or am i getting something different with just a green 1027. So after all this what he has written has answered questions but now leaves me with more questions.hope this doesnt label me a foe.but im trying to understand stand and find what to order. I dont mind spending money like i tell my kids but i dont like wasting it either.
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33650

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I'm neither friend or foe of vendors who name Kratom or Joe's new method.

I really like Red Hulu from one vendor and I just finished the bag its been a year. I will order Red Hulu from this vendor soon. It's not going to be the same batch from a year ago. If they source a supplier from the same exact region it could have different properties and not be what I am expecting but I trust this vendor at least tests it out and generalizes its alkaloid properties. Red Hulu is a strong Red for me so I can only hope its going to be potent faster type Red.
Red Hulu is not a lie its just this vendors strain name kratom is not exact. I learned to never expect to just go ahead and buy another vendor's Red Hulu and think its the same. I have learned to buy sample packs before I make a new stock up.

I bought Super Green Kali from Re-leaf. a year ago. It was strong, too strong. I ordered recently just Green Kali in my mind I figured it would be just right not Super but just right. Lol it turned out it was. Joe is saying this logic is flawed. All that matters to me that I liked what I bought.

I can never get that Green Kali from Re-leaf once the batch runs out.I believe I can find something similar. But how can I find something similar? I said I need a little guidance with greens, I do this myself by ordering 10 grams samples then would order 100 grams of what worked best, making sure it would be from the same batch. I just did this a few months ago with Re-leaf and I bought 200 grams Green Kali and Green Sundra after I costumed ordered 5 10 gram sample packs.. But THEY TOOK AWAY THE ABILITY TO MAKE MY OWN 10 GRAM SAMPLER PACKS.
Re-leaf has quality potent kratom its probably not cost effective but this new system feels a need of sample sizing.
Will have to see how this evolves.
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33651

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You know I agree with you on this, Nan70! Samples first. Even Total Kratom does samples and kilos, nothing else.
I never buy kilos. Half that at the most, but I sample first.
Except with Joe, I took a shot in the dark and ordered some stupid names people had liked, such as KING KONG. I still have no effing idea when is appropriate to use it. Seems helpful and not too strong, but I don’t even know if it will help pain, so I use another red from Gold Leaf for pain.
If anyone knows WTF King Kong was supposed to be good for, please post.
As for the rest of my last order from Re-Leaf, I definitely felt like all those names and regions are ridiculous. Like when a restaurant offers 250 items, I don’t expect a deluxe meal. They can’t possibly be using fresh food with a menu like that!
I order carefully in such establishments. The menu on Re-Leaf was like that. So I picked 3 greens and 2 reds in a half kilo split and I REALLY LIKE everything but the KING KONG and that one was mentioned here by someone or I’d have not tried it.

I’m sure Joe will get us a sampling system, safe from his enemies - there are some real losers in this industry and he does need to be careful. Joe’s product quality is THAT GOOD that people would commit criminal acts to put him out of business AND steal his stuff. Sad.
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33655

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Sometimes there aren't any answers that we want. Sometimes the answers that are wanted just flat out don't exist.

No matter if the name was Green Sunda or Green Hulu the fact of the matter is that you will NEVER receive that exact product again. Our business model gives you the chance to order the same product. When you see 1027 in my menu that will never be there again after it runs out. If it is listed then it is the same product as it was. So, my system actually works in favor to people that want the same kratom. When you see the same number in my store you can BET that that is the SAME EXACT kratom you ordered. When you order Green Hulu from somewhere else and they have that menu item all year long the chances on you getting the same batch is VERY VERY LOW. So, while your logic and eyes see that the name is the same BUT in reality the product is different. When we post a phenotype number... that number will never ever exist again after it runs out.

Once again, this is just my opinion and this is civil discourse and I love you folks. The issue here is that people actually think samples matter. The majority of companies that give out samples ACTUALLY SEND YOU BETTER PRODUCT AND THEN CONVINCE YOU TO BUY THEN THEY SEND YOU CRAP PRODUCT. I KNOW MANY VENDORS WHO DO THIS. Most of the times you get samples when you order the product you think is the same as the sample....the batch changed. You are just appeasing your mind and actually ordering based on false precepts. That's exactly why we will never do samples. We have great product and I personally don't believe in samples helping anyone. I mean kratom can literally do different things the 1st time you try and then work better or worse the second time. We are just trying to take methods from other markets and introduce them to kratom. It is not applicable. If people don't think our company has enough of a reputation to order from than I don't mind they shop with a company that suits there ordering style. I want all consumers to be happy and we fully realize we aren't for everyone.

Also when you say "I trust this vendor at least tests it out and generalizes its alkaloid properties"

I am very sorry to disagree. But I would bet every single dollar I have that they do not run full alkaloid comprehensive lab testing. That is definitely not happening. The only time alk testing is done in our community is when a company wants to test for 7-Hydroxymitragynine & mitragynine. That's it. This is a big issue if people think that companies do this. A test for those two alkaloids can run $1000-$2000. That is NOT the price for a complete analysis of all Alks. And the reason those tests are done in my opinion are mostly malevolent. They will do one test. They will find there "best" product (the one they think is the best) and they will get the results. THEN they will post there results and claim those results on there other products.

The issue here is that these lies have been retold so many times that no matter what information or science comes up the market is like "nah, i can't believe that."

So, this is the issue for me.

You want to order the same product. You order the same title from a different vendor. I am telling you that it's different product others don't want to believe it. Therefor the power of the mind comes in to the picture.

The consumer believes that there is some system in place to make sure its coming from the same area the same phenotype etc.

I am telling you that's not the case. I've tried EVERY method to fact check indo suppliers. Ive been part of a group of vendors who have had two of the "same" product tested from a very reputable Indonesian supplier. The product looked the same BUT WAS NOT THE SAME PRODUCT. This was a year agao. This is what helped me in this mission to find out the truth.

But, who am I to say it's not working for you. It might be. The placebo affect actually works. I am telling you this is 90% of the time when you think you are receiving the same "phenotype" or strain.

Here is one of many studies:
"In a 2016 study published in the journal Pain, researchers including Kaptchuk randomly assigned 83 people with chronic low back pain at a hospital in Lisbon to either continue taking their pain medication as usual or start taking honest placebo pills with their typical treatment. Before the start of the study, the men and women filled out questionnaires about the intensity of their pain and how much disability it was causing them. After that, people treating their pain as usual continued to take their nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, while the people taking placebos were given bottles labeled placebo pills with instructions to take the pills twice a day. After three weeks, the people in the study rated their pain and disability levels again. The researchers found that, on average, the group taking painkillers reported a 9% reduction in usual pain, a 16% reduction in maximum pain and no reduction in disability. But the people knowingly taking placebos experienced a 30% reduction in both usual and maximum pain and a 29% drop in disability."

The irony here is that my system is the only system that sure fire guarantees you can get the EXACT product you want. If you order 1095 and you log on to our website and see 1095 available then that is the same exact product.

If you order Red Bali from another vendor. And then you order it again. Who knows if it is the same?!

Also I think that our Mission Statement needs to be addressed here. Because of quotes like this "Re-leaf has quality potent kratom its probably not cost effective"

MISSION STATEMENT:
Re-leaf LLC aims to curate many small batches of quality kratom. We aim to offer the most selections in the world by mid year 2019. We cater to the kratom enthusiast who is used to shopping in the middle to the higher end of the spectrum of prices and quality.

Let me kind of make an analogy here.

If you like Ribeyes. And you sually get a bomb 12 oz ribeye from Chilis. Let's say the cook it perfect 6 out of 10 times and the price is $17.95

Then you figure that you want to start shopping elsewhere for your 12 oz ribeye. 6 out of 10 times can be improved on. And also sometimes the 12 oz ribeyes from Chilis are not tender. About 2 out of 10 seem to have hard tendons.

So, you choose to go to Outback Steakhouse where there 12 oz ribeyes are @22.95.

You end up going to Outback 10 times and you get the 12 oz ribeye cooked great 8 out of 10 times. You also find that there were no steaks that had the weird fatty tendon things in it.

So, here is the difference in markets. Neither of those establishments should be deemed as "not cost effective" in my opinion. They are different markets. They have different pros and cons.

The world is very big and the market of kratom is even bigger. I get twice as many people telling me that I could raise my prices and my product is still worth it. So saying we are "not cost effective" is an opinion I will very much refute with market facts.

I can definitely say that that quote makes me cringe. I love you NAN and love your positivity and optimistic outlook but this statement is pretty loose and off base with what we are trying to accomplish.

Our reorder rate is through the roof. Our customers that have shopped in 15+ places constantly tell us we are in the top if not the top of there lists. As a matter of fact. I want you to go through 20 pages of google and price 4 ozs in every single company. Then judge our cost effectiveness that way. I think it's unfair to judge our cost effectiveness by the experience of one person. We sit directly in the middle of prices of kratom. And honestly, the business model I dream of is unlike any other I have ever seen. So of course if you like other business models and you have a hard time with switching price points and understanding our mission statement than yes I get it...we aren't for you.

I want to swing back to my original point.

THERE IS NO WAY TO ACCURATELY FIND A SIMILAR PHENOTYPE TO PAST PRODUCTS YOU'VE USED.

and to double down...

Even if you did you wouldn't notice because of tolerance.

So, I am an extreme opponent of this thought process of finding something consistent when kratom is the least consistent alternative m3d1c1ne out there. We just can't admit it.

While we obviously have some disagreements... the best part is the discourse. The only way for any of us to grow is to talk.

I want to triple down on the fact that I LOVE ALL OF MY KRATOM FOLKS! i truly do. Keep fighting the good fight!

I fully understand the challenge I am facing but I honestly believe I have science behind me and also experience.

In reality, you are looking for consistency which we provide via our number system. The number exists once and then is gone forever. If we stock five kilos of 1120 then that is listed until gone once its gone its gone.

Oh, Laurie.... The best business model for those "kilo vendors" are the sample business model. I am not saying Total Kratom does this.... but I know many vendors who send out samples and then send different product. This happens more than it doesn't

Oh, and Laurie I especially love you even though as expected we are humans and sometimes we don't see eye to eye but thats what makes us awesome friends. :) Jazmine and Jaydyn says hi btw. I need to send you some pictures soon.
We always want you to contact us! 207-907-6687 We take kratom very serious!
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Vendor suggestion while Re-leaf is remodeling 7 months 3 weeks ago #33658

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lol When I mentioned testing beside contaminant testing I was thinking human testing not lab where there had staff actually try the Kratom out. Not that it will give the same relief to everyone but you can tell when you take potent Kratom. Kratom is subjective in nature but not so much that a group of ten people will have totally separate experiences, If kratom was that off I cannot image anyone having success with the herb but people do. Picks can be made and advised to a degree its not that off. Anyway I really benefit from anti inflammatory benefit of Kratom <---- this is important to me that they never take natural Kratom off the market, Pharma will not synthesize the trace alkaloids that I feel help me. I know that wasn't a good sciencey explanation. I need the whole natural leaf as long as its not a white phenotype.


I recommend Re-leaf all the time on this forum. I think ordering is still easy-

You select phenotype(used to be strains) and you are offered two sizes. 100 grams(2 pages of product) or 50 grams.
www.re-leaf.us/#!/Phenotypes/c/32472160/offset=0&sort=normal

You have Red, Green, White, or Yellow. Then pick a number and add it to your cart.
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